Thursday, March 27, 2008

560 - Wisdom - got some?

Hey - i was looking for a friend's website and ran across another one with the same name, a christian, but a homosexual. She is a well-know radio host in Dallas i think. She is a gay Christian and makes no excuse for it. (I know i am going to get some weird google ads, but please just bear with me.) Here is our conversation - one that is not finished and that is why i am posting this. I would love to have your wisdom in this manner - not opinion, but wisdom from the Word. Thanks!! I do not run across many gay people in my neck of the woods so i was thrilled this girl emailed me back. I know what i believe, but I just wanted to hear what she really feels and why, but without any condemnation or arguing - in love. Here is the conversation.. I am red and she is blue...

Hi Jen - Just found your site when I was looking for another friend. Can you please tell me how you interpret the Bible condoning and embracing homosexuality and Christianity? I truly am interested. Thank you!!

How do I interpret the Bible...that's a short question with a pretty long answer for an email. I spent a couple of years really studying the word when I wrote my book, Coming Out Christian, and there is an entire section in the book that discusses the main passages and my interpretation. I'd love for you to read it and let me know what you think. Old Testament Law where man should not lie with man, etc. was based on a holiness code that related to cleanliness in my interpretation. It also instructed the culture to refrain from wearing clothing made of two different fabrics and various other things that are not bound today. By these standards anyone who condemns homosexuality and is also wearing a cotton/polyester blend has condemned themselves. Jesus came to free us from this type of legalism. Of utmost importance to me is the fact that Jesus did not say a word about homosexuality itself. Modern day religious organizations have become adamant about condemning homosexuality, but Jesus never did and for people to condemn in his name is not only unfair, but just plain inaccurate. As for Paul's words against homosexuality, he was addressing temple prostitution and other broken actions that are just plain immoral on a very basic level and have nothing to do with pure same sex love. The Bible never addresses gay partnerships in which two loving, committed partners settle down, contribute to the growth of a family, and focus on positive healthy things. There is so much power in that. I grew up in a Christian home and spent a good portion of my twenties reconciling faith with sexuality. I'm 34 now and completely comfortable in my own skin. At last! Closer to God than ever, better in my relationship, more thoughtful and self aware, and growing all the time. I've noticed the more truthful I have become, the more goodness I have discovered. God is so awesome. I hope we can keep the lines of communication open. I've been desiring to embark on a more structured speaking tour, and perhaps we can help one another. My career as a radio personality keeps me busy and grounded in Dallas right now, but you never know what the future holds. Best of luck in all that you do. Please write back when you have a chance.

So what do you think? How would you respond? What would you say back?

Thanks for you input...

24 comments:

Dori said...

On the surface, and I have to really look at the scriptures further that is quoting, my first gut reaction is this:

We are toying with a very dangerous slope when we start discounting scriptures in the Bible because they were written for a very specific people group for a very specific reason.

It reminds me of a man that I once had a spiritual discussion with who even went so far to say that the book of John and the teachings of Jesus to the disciples were just that -- very specific lessons to a very specific group of men - his friends, the disciples -- not addressed to us at all.

DANGEROUS!

If all scripture is God-breathed and useful for teaching, reproofing, correcting, and the like (II Timothy 3:16), then one would have to counter her belief that certain scriptures don't apply to her or don't address certain subjects.

Her validation concerns me because it has a hint of saying that the Bible is not enough to guide us in all truth. That in addition to the Bible we need to add what the authors really meant, what church tradition says, relevancy to today's world, what reason and science can tell us, what our own personal experiences are, and the culture around us -- that will guide us in all truth. Puts too much wisdom in the hearts of man, rather than the wisdom of God who inspired the scriptures -- every single one!

I prefer to stand on the Word of God.

Oh boy, this sounds like a soapbox and I have so not gotten on this one -- ever!

I really do want to look at her scriptures and do some studying.

We are wise to look at this because our culture and reaching those in our culture, even ministering to our children in the future, demands it.

Good question today, friend!

Dori

Sarah Martin said...

Leigh,
I am so proud of you for taking on this issue!! It is so important for Christians to stand up for their Biblical Worldview and that is exactly what you did. I am going to chew on this for a while and post again later today.

be back soon,
sarah martin

Speaking Thru Me Ministries said...

yes Doir - I am so with you. The other thing that bothers or concerns me is how she is mulitple times "in my interpretation". You I would like to think that I am always right in my interpretation, but I am not. It really doesn't matter what my interpretation is - it is what the Bible is truly saying. thank you for your comments - love for you to send a few others here that mgiht be interested in commenting. I have got to write this beautiful child of GOd back - she really is a lovely girl and so kind - she is waiting. Thank you for getting me one step closer. And yes, we do need to be learning to address all kinds of things liek this!

love you girl!

Speaking Thru Me Ministries said...

Sarah - I can't wait to hear back from you as well. I know with all your education and training you have probably got some great words up your sleeves. thank you for tkaing the time to study up and get back with me. If you don't mind, please post it so that everyone else can see to. thansk

The Preacher's Wife said...

gotta get kids ready for school but i'll be back on this one!

:)

Lisa

Irritable Mother said...

Leigh, I am so glad God brought you to this woman, and I pray her heart will be open to hearing Him speak thru you!
I agree with the concern for Jen's reliance on her interpretation. If I wanted to, I could use my own interpretation of Luke 1:6-7 to justify my ungodly behavior because I DO have kids. I could say Elizabeth and Zechariah were godly because they had no children. I know that isn't what the passage is saying, but I could interpret it that way if I wanted to!
As for Jesus not specifically addressing homosexuality, He did address marriage and reminded the Pharisees in Matthew 19:4-5 "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.'"
How about looking at the simple fact of creation? God created us male and female, with parts that fit and function to allow for procreation. He did not create women to be with women or men with men. We love our pets but don't question the "right-ness" of a sexual relationship with them, do we? It is obvious we were not created for that kind of a relationship. Likewise, it is obvious we were not created for that kind of relationship with another person of the same sex. Eyes, alone, will tell you that, and there is no arguing with that interpretation.
As for the Bible never addressing "gay partnerships in which two loving, committed partners settle down, contribute to the growth of a family, and focus on positive healthy things," I don't see how this omission suggests the righteousness of such a relationship. The Bible does address heterosexual marriages in which a man and a woman pledge their lives to one another and the growth of their family and all those positive things. In fact, it addresses that relationship quite a bit. Perhaps we would do well to follow what the Bible says, rather than what it does not.
OK, this has gotten quite long...Thank you for embarking on this conversation. Praying for you, friend!

Lucy said...

Oh, Leigh. This one hurts deeply. We don't know this woman personally, but her love for the Lord seems obvious to me. I guess that's one reason why it hurts to read her "interpretation."

My guess is that at some point in her past she recognized her sin of homosexuality as just that, a sin. She may have even tried to "beat it" a few times.....maybe repeatedly.

I know you weren't asking for "theories", but I still want to share mine. I can't help but wonder if homosexuality doesn't start out as codependence in it's purest form. Two very young people of the same sex cross paths. There's something in each one of them that feeds a deeply rooted emotional need in the other one. They're too young to recognize the codependence (if they even know what that is) in their relationship and before long they've crossed lines that they may have never thought they would've crossed. At this point they may still consider their actions "just something they did" and not "who they are." But it happens again. They got that emotional need met by another person. Eventually it goes from being "what they did" to "who they are." It's one thing to commit a sin. Any and every sin can be forgiven. It's a whole other thing to "be" a sin. How can you be forgiven for "being" a sin? That's when it's got to be made "not a sin." You and I know that homosexuals are commiting a sin, not "being a sin", but the world has done a remarkable job of convincing them that that's just how they were born; it's just "who they are" and that feeds into the wrong idea that "if the act of homosexuality is a sin and I'm a homosexual, then I'm a sin and God hates sin." Do you see the cycle? It's so much easier to make it "not a sin", especially when you don't know that there really and truly is FORGIVENESS AND HEALING TO BE HAD.

In Romans 1:18 Paul starts out talking about people who suppress the truth and he says ".....what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them." God has made it pretty obvious how he designed the whole human sexuality thing to work. Take a diagram of a naked man and a naked woman and it's plain to see. As the above scripture states, God has made it plain. Verse 20 - "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen - BEING UNDERSTOOD FROM WHAT HAS BEEN MADE, SO THAT MEN ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE." Paul is basically saying, "Stop ignoring the obvious. You can plainly see from the way God designed the thing how it's supposed to work and if you want to know exactly what God's intentions were (and are)when He created us, then look at HOW he created us, for crying out loud! Stop justifying and making excuses."

Verse 25 gives us the problem and the solution in one sentence. "They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator - who is forever praised." Homosexuality is the exchange of the truth for a lie. That exchange is at the root of ALL sin. The verse goes on to say, "....and served created things rather than the Creator..." When you boil homosexuality (and every other sin) down what you're left with is people worshiping and serving something other than God, whether it be that unmet need (the need in itself isn't sin. God created the need, but He created the need to serve Us by drawing us to Him, not for us to serve the need),another person or one of a million other things we worship and serve that is not God.

People try to make homosexuality a "special" sexual sin. Sexual sin is sexual sin, regardless of who it's being commited by or with. And sin is sin, regardless of its "classification." But sexual sin is different, not because it has some greater power to send us to hell, but because, for whatever reason, it does carry with it greater earthly destruction and consequences. There's just something about sexual sin that "sticks to us." 1 Corinthians 6:19 says, "Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?" I have no idea why, but homosexuality is a sin with a very, very strong grip on the person commiting it. I imagine that it goes back to the mindset that it is "who I am" instead of "what I did."

We've got to pray for this woman. God loves her very much and we should too. Leigh, imagine how God could use this woman in your ministry after she's delivered from this stronghold. Imagine the testimony she'd have and all the women God would deliver through this woman's testimony. You'd be surprised to know how many women are struggling with this sin and have never told a soul.

I hope this helps. I never intended for it to be this long.

Shonda said...

Leigh,
I pray the Lord lead you in HIS wisdom. As I prayed about this I felt led to 1 Timothy. I read all 6 chapters. Chapters 1, 4, and 6 stood out the most. I believe Paul's words to the young minister Timothy are applicable for ministers today. As Dori said, the Word says all Scripture is from God and is useful for us. As believers, we're all ministers of the gospel of Christ.

There are many false doctrines out there being taught as truth. But the Holy Spirit who is the Spirit of Truth will reveal all things. I pray for your friend that the Spirit of Truth will reveal these things to her. Years ago I fell under some teaching that I thought were Biblically sound, but then the Holy Spirit grabbed hold of me and pruned that false doctrine out of my life.

Often times a person who is in sin tends to take defensive stance and perhaps has a victim mentality. That type of person looks for a place to put the blame so he or she wont have to take responsibility for their own actions.

Any scripture can be taken out of context to justify a position. But we have to search for the Truth from God through Jesus our Savior. Jesus is the Way the Truth and Life.

As Christians we can walk in love, but not agree with someone's position, esp. when we know it does not line up with HIS word.

I look forward to reading the wisdom from others today.

I pray Leigh you be led by the Holy Spirit in your response.

Blessings in Christ--

Speaking Thru Me Ministries said...

thanks girls - this is awesome - thank you so much for tkaing the time to do this!! I will be back in contact with oyu!! awesome - prasie Him! love, Leigh

Runt said...

Hey Leigh,
Tough, huh, been searching scripture and God led me to the following:
1 Corinthians 6:15 & 19. I know there is more in the New Testament concerning this subject, just didn't find it. I can not conceive in my own mind how anyone could think being gay is ok knowing their body is a temple of God. If we are christians then the Holy Spirit lives within us, I can not imangine being with someone of the same sex and the Spirit remaining within us. Hope this may help. Praying for you and your friend, God will give you the words to say.

Love ya,
Tracy Jenks

Sarah Martin said...

Leigh,
Hope you had a great day!I am not sure if you have already responed back to the lady, but I have a feeling that this might be an on going conversation-what a great opportunity! I have been thinking about your post all day and have run into a great resource for you. Check out this webpage by Family Research council: http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=WX07E35. This is a great list of Bible verses that explicitly condemn homosexuality.

The one that I think most hits home is: "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters not adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." (I Corinthians 6:9-11, NIV)

I think it is important to note that because the Bible is so explicit about this issue, Christians CAN NOT cherry pick what verses they choose to obey and believe. If that were the case and God's Word were subjective, then wouldn't the most important aspect of the Bible be subjective-that would be the concept of Salvation!!

One more verse that I ran across while listening to a Kay Arthur teaching CD was, and I think this might hit home to your new friend:
"9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." 2 Cor 5:9-10. If she truly has a heart for the Lord, which I don't doubt for a second, then her main goal is to please God. It is impossible to please God with a gay lifestyle especially since God makes it abundantly clear what he thinks of that behavior!

Sorry this is a little lenghty. For your readers of the blog, here are two great websites that tackle controversial worldview issues from a Biblical perspective:

FRC.org
Breakpoint.or (this is chuck colson's ministry)

Hope this helps!

sarah

Anonymous said...

Leigh
After eading your e-mail I was curious to know more about this person. I looked up the blog and if you read April 18 2005 post she has been hit head on with this type of message before. The author of that e-mail to her seemed to bring up the same scripture I look to Romans 1:26-32. However Jen feels that this is something natural to her. The Bible states that it could be natural but that we are not to give in to even some of our natural lust. It is natural for me to want to want to eat what ever I want and to be jealous at times of things I do not have and so on. But as a Christian I am called to withstand those things and not give in just because I "naturally" feel that way. That is my sin nature.
This is a hard discussion but one we should all be aware of where we stand.
Keep taking the bold stands God puts before you.


ANDREA

Josh said...

Great post... Have a good weekend!

Speaking Thru Me Ministries said...

awesome people - this is so exciting! I know the Lord is so pleased to see each of us digging through the WORD to find the truth!! yeah - prasie Him!!

ANdrea - is this my carmi andrea or another??? i am stumped...

love, Leigh

Anonymous said...

Leigh
It is Andrea from Carmi!
I also wanted to add Galatians 6:16-26. 16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
and as you read on verse 24 says that
Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passion and desires.
It is the same as me being married I am going to see men other than my husband who are attractive however I have made a vow under God that I will lust only for my husband, therefore I rely on God and have faith that it will not ever even be a temptation for me.

Now I understand that for each of us some of our desires are stronger in different areas but we are called to ....deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke 9:23

While stating all of this I do not want to sound righteous because I know that no one including myself are without sin.

We all fall short ...it is about what you aiming for.. a deeper relationship .... and what you know is carrying you....the pure grace of God!

Speaking Thru Me Ministries said...

hey andrea - thank you so much!! i appreciate you thinking even more and coming back - you are the bomb. this is so great and like i said before - He has to be so pleased!!! Going to Crossroads today? what about the Alumni game?? Hope to see you some place. Ready to run?

love, Leigh

Kate said...

Wow. Oh, and Hi...I guess it's been a while. :)
I just finished writing a paper on Progressive Christianity and its acceptance of sin backed up by mans interpretation of scripture. Doing this is merely an attempt to justify a lifestyle in which one feels it is necessary to become comfortable with. I am with others that claim the danger in doing this. I wish I could share what I wrote; however, since I just turned my paper in, I wouldn't want any phrases to get caught on the paper eliminator. Anywy, I too was drawn to 1 Tim 1 & 4 as well as 1 Corinthians 6:18. There is absolutely nothing I should EVER have to justify in my lifestyle; however, there are some things I will attempt to justify when I come before my Lord...I call them sin because I am not perfect. God's grace is enough for me as I struggle though the sin that pops up in my own life, and there's grace enough for your new email friend. It's not our position to judge...but, call a spade a spade, keep your love for Christ, and don't justify what is clearly sin...just drop back to your knees.

Speaking Thru Me Ministries said...

Kate - isn't God awesome!! To send you here to the blog on this very post to see what is going on - the very thing you have been writing about!! Oh girl - thanks for your comment and I would love to read your wisdom in print some day. Special girl - that is you!! and not to mention incredibly smart!! love, Leigh

eph2810 said...

I think that you already have some great answers.
Only one thing that I want to add: we can't pick and choose what we want to believe is truth. I think that God's words in plain and clear - from beginning to end - about same sex relationships. It is not by 'accident' that God made male and female different :)
I am thrilled that you are taking on this subject so boldly.

(((hugs))) and blessings.

Speaking Thru Me Ministries said...

Tracy - I am so with you. I have always had that "theory" as well. The one about ladies getting the lines crossed and then believing it is what they are and not just what they do - yes oh yes girl!! I am with you!


Were anyone of you at Deeper Still in Nashville? Priscilla talked about a lady that came out of this and had a magazine for this lifestlye that went belly up once she was redeemed? What was the magazine or the ladies name? Thanks for your help...

Dionna said...

Leigh -
You have been given some great scripture verses. I think we need to be so careful in this day and age of allowing Satan to twist God's truth "just enough" to make us believe that the lie we are living is okay. We can speak the truth in love without condemning people. God's Word does not change with the passing of years - His Word is UNCHANGING. That means His laws do not change - only we do - and that is our free will and choice.

Digging for Pearls said...

I could use your help. I am trying to survey as many women as possible to find out what ten struggles they face as a Christian woman. If you have a few minutes, I would love your input on my blog in regards to the ten struggles that Christian women face. Thank you!

Please pass this on to your friends as well.

Victoria said...

What's interesting to me is the fact that she found the answer she was looking for and ran with it. It had nothing to do with seeking God's stand. I think that encouraging her to look for biblical support of her theory instead of ways to discount scripture would be a better approach. I'd remind her of how each and every letter of His Word is for the growing of us all. Most importantly, I'd remind her that it's better to live in His Truth and have your guess be wrong than it is to believe so much in your guess that you lose sight of the Truth.
Wow, I hope that all made sense, I'm pre-coffee...=]

Kim said...

Okay Leigh, I know I am a little late on this one but I read Josh McDowell's book: The New Tolerence yesterday and God kept laying this girl on my heart. Here is what I read in the book that struck me as sheer wisdom:

When Eve succumbed to the temptation to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Gen.30), she made an important decision, one that affected generation after generation of her race. She knew that God had already decided - AND COMMUNICATED - what was right and what was wrong. Read Gen. 2:16-17.
But Eve decided that was not good wnough for her. Enticed by the serpent, Eve determined that she was not going to let God tell her what was good and what was bad; she would make that decision herself. (Genesis 3:5)

Adam and Eve set themselves up in God's place and took something that belonged only to God; the power to decide WHAT is good and what is evil.

Leigh - this is what the world, our culture has now embraced - this New Tolerance. This lady is doing what seems right to her and the culture is embracing it - and trying to justify her thinking with the word of God. I commend you for your gentle approach in asking her how she arrived at her thinking. It is what we should do as Christians - remember how Jesus apporached the woman at the well. He did not condem her - he led her to making right choices. He loved her enough to tell her the TRUTH!

It is what we have to be careful of with our children in public schools - NEW TOLERANCE is the HIDDEN DANGER within the classroom. Many parents are not even aware - I strongly recommend that you read this book - it gives parents some wonderful insight as to what they can do to influence their children's public school classrooms - Christians have to take a stand now. It seems that you are in a community and ministry now where you can make a difference. This cultural movement is destroying our kids. Read it and let me know what you think.
Hugs,
Kim

PS - Still struggling with the border - the bathroom wall paper came down easily - but Sam's border was applied over new paint and I think it just super glued it to the wall - I am scraping slowly - it is coming off - just not quickly. Thanks for your comment.